A web site and blog that targets change in the Child Support systems of the world by helping people understand the pros and cons of the process and looking for the tools to change the systems that need it.
Friday, January 26, 2007
Ontario's FRO goes to the web!
But will it make a difference?
In today's Globe and Mail they detailed the FRO's plans to put up a site to help identify, locate, and/or embarrass the Deadbeat Dads out there.
Yes, the FRO can "suck", and you are anything but alone. I've seen this side of them and you need to stand tall and focus on your son or daughter's best interests. Don't give up contact and think about how you can be the best parent you can be. It's tough, very tough, but from experience stay on the best side of this. It'll look better for you and never, EVER, reflect a negative tone when referring to your ex around your child.
Anonymous - The FRO was set up for obvious reasons... what if the mother of your child met hard times, would you provide extra for her if you had the means - doubtful...
I am a single mother who has not received child support for over a year - not a dime. My ex has never paid for childcare, extra-curricular or medical expenses.
I have encouraged a relationship with our son because it is in our son's best interest.
It's time to take responsibility on both an emotional and financial level - I am sure any amount would be appreciated.
My ex doesn't pay me because he says, "you have enough money". Time to be a man and start contributing financially.
You said, "would you provide extra for her if you had the means - doubtful..."
It's funny that you can offer an opinion on me with absolutely no knowledge of my circumstances. In fact, before the FRO was involved I was very willing to, and did, raise and lower the support amount as my income would allow.
I'm sorry that you have not received support, this is both unfair and immoral and I DO NOT agree with those men (non-custodial parents) that neglect this responsibility. The FRO is there to help people like you, but there needs to be understanding too.
I am very happy to hear you encouraging the relationship with your son. That's very good of you and you should be commended.
You ex's excuse of "you have enough money", is heard around the world where child support laws are in-place. While I can see it having some merit sometimes, generally this is a lame excuse for irresponsible behaviour.
Pop me an e-mail if you want to discuss this more, but I'm glad you're as responsible as you are. You're a good example.
Sorry for the confusion on who you were referring to...
It may seem insufficient, but when it comes to you son's role model, the only thing you can do is keep the dialogue open about responsibilities and ethics/morality. Show him the right path and be consistent. Children are smarter than we give them credit for, they will see the good if they see the benefit.
"I will always take responsibility for my son and sacrifice. I have always put his needs before mine especially on the financial side." - I wish more people could do this, on either side.
fro is just another extention of the seriously flawed family law system. descrimination, gender bias, legalized extortion and infringements on one's civil rights are just the tip of the iceberg!
been caught up in it all for 12 years now, just went to court for the third time and now considering the fourth. never gets easier for me, just keeps costing me more and more money as the years go by....
every time my income changes I must go back to court, and face a hypicrit judge and vendictive ex who have no concerns about my financial circumstances and living standards that reflect on my relationship with the child i'm forced to support by handing over more money than I can afford and going into arrears over and over again not to mention the lower living standards and lifesyle I bring my child into when she visits me.
what good is a financial statement as part of a affitdavit, if its never considered in family court? been there 3 times now and has never made a difference.
now directly about the fro... last time I was forced into court cause I wanted to keep my license. went into arrears cause I was paying and not paying when I couldn't for 6 years based on a higher income, not to mention the "extra ordinary expences" (baby sitting)for a 14 yr old child.
those in arrears forced to aquire a refraing to keep the fro from taking your driver's license away take note...
part of the process is you must agree to vary you existing court order, but you might not be aware that before the order actually goes before the court, be it 1 month, 3 months or 6 months your must enter a repayment agreement with the FRO until your existing amount of CS on your existing court order is changed.
a representative, usually some family lawyer you have seen before, steps up and becomes someone you must appease by offering a set amount of money for ongoing support and money towards the arrears that you may or may not have incurred. if it is not satisfactory to him/her, then you have the option of having the judge decide for you. you can bargain back and forth with the FRO lawyer but you can count on paying even more than you already did. i agreed to a repayment schedual to fro that almost doubled my already unaffordable monthly payment. i agreed to the terms of the fro lawyer because i feared the judge that put me in that position in the first place.
so after that is said and done, 1 month later my existing court order was changed. my monthly ongoing payment was reduced by a whole $25 per month, my arrears were set to $0 and kissed all the extra money i did over pay over 6 yrs based on a higher income and the extra (baby sitting money)on top of that, as well as the last increased money that the fro lawyer forced me to pay in my last court appearance before the court order was actually changed. oh by the way I also managed to change the visitation on the order originally dictated to me by the court of when i could see my daughter to letting her decide when she wanted to see me since in the courts she is of the age to decide for herself.
over the years i have been to a few mpp's offices to get on the fro's case about arrears, credits and garnishment mismanagement and plain old mistakes and the time it takes for the fro to fix them.
to all the people who oppose my views and opinions regarding the family courts, child support and the FRO, its obvious that your not to educated and experienced in the negative effects and the toll it takes on peoples lives. they treat you like a criminal not a parent and have no respect for you if your the payor.
this is about fair child support? show me and my daughter the fairness, explain to her why there is nothing to eat or why we can't always do what she wants to or why its boring for her when she visits.
do me the favor and explain what "a childs best interests" really means.
its all about the money not the "best interests of the child" thats my experience thus far.
all the fro is there for is to keep the money rollin' in. nothing else matter's.
While I recommend adherence and payment, the FRO, when called into involvement are a like a savage and mindless dog in a fight, not concerned for the welfare of anyone but rather concerned with winning the case regardless of circumstances.
I have been through what you have been through, and I work to remain in compliance, twinging with fear when I have a pay increase because if a crash comes, I'll be forced into arrears because my income drops. Saving money is not only difficult but pointless, enjoying it now, spending it on my accommodation and so my kids are happy here the 2 days out of 14, rather than losing it when a judge considers me under-employed and drops another debt of arrears on me. (Judges, who don't actually *work* at anything other than being biased and prejudiced.)
You said, "...they treat you like a criminal not a parent and have no respect for you if [you're] the payor." = You are absolutely right. This is the disposition of the people inside the "system" (The FRO, the judges, the police when involved. etc.)
All I can say is hang in there. Love your kids as much as possible and don't ever give up. I know you might want to sometimes, but don't, really, you know you can't, you're a parent.
Send this link to your MPP. Show them that you are not the lone father that is a contradiction to the title of Deadbeat Dad, but one of many.
O.K. How do we change this? I am the wife and mother to two small children. My husband pays support for ONE child from a previous relationship. I would like to see all of his kids have equal 'right' to their fathers money. I think more people need to get togther to work towards positive change for a system that can adapt to different circumstances. Our economy is going down the tubes and men are going in arrears all over the place because there are no jobs! That hardly makes them deadbeats. Will employers see their picture on the web and in turn make it more difficult to get a good job? this obviously not the answer. Write to MP's to take some pointer's from Australia, change the system so there isn't so much unwarranted entitlement 'for the sake of the children' Some guys do really want the best for their kids, no matter what the law, ex's or the whole system has lead people to believe.
My ex-wife owns 3 day cares she runs a payroll and shows $24,000.00 annual income for herself. A big house, 2 SUV’s in the drive way 4-6 exclusive vacations a year, all the newest toys like iPhone etc. she also drinks (starts about after breakfast) her entire live is a party. Her parents have millions and she has a very good accountant. I am employed just moved out from a one bedroom apartment, I got remarried in 2004 we just had a new baby, I have about $100,000.00 depth…increasing. I just got laid off and I am without income for the last 6 weeks, however I am not entitled to receive unemployment money, I pay $1250.00 every month on child support…It looks like I have to file bankruptcy…I am not sure if I can make it….I borrowed money to have a townhouse where I can start raise my new family, I would like to know what the FRO has to say now. And by the way, my ex-wife was the one who wanted me out of her life because she used to go and have all the boyfriends she wanted. Where is the fairness in this country, if I can’t not even pay my own bills first? My two children who live with my ex-wife have everything they don’t need my money, why does the court not listen to fathers like me who have been taken to the cleaners. BIG time. My story is much longer and there is more I need to add but FRO will only stick there head into the sand…they don’t want to hear if honest fathers trying to make a honest point….I guess I go and kill myself and be done with it.
First off... I hear you, but that doesn't help much. I'm glad you posted your situation because I keep pushing this blog in the face of MPs and MPPs (only the MPPs matter, but no, they don't seem to care).
"Where is the fairness in this country, if I can’t not even pay my own bills first?" - I know.
Please do not consider suicide an option, even in jest. There are too many kids that lose their father before they figure out they needed them. Those kids may not be given a need to know you yet, but they'll want it later. My uncle was lucky enough to regain a relationship with his daughter after signing away his rights (many years ago) and he regretted it, luck brought them back together, they're best friends now.
As for the fairness, there is no fairness, only lawyers, judges, and the blind-eye of government. Fathers need to be ever-vigilant, persisting (through non-harassing tactics) in their child(ren)'s lives. Staying available. It will hurt like nothing else, but being available, accessible is what YOUR CHILDREN need. That is the only thing that matters.
Cameron, Thank you for your message. Don't worry I wont kill myself, that was just a speech. But the system is not right....how come the mother of the children gets away with that, and we live like dogs. What about if you are starting to show more income on your T$ does this have to go to court... I guess not ching, ching...Tax free money for the ex...she is having another party.... Anyway, I not sure what I need to do to survive, I will loose my home, I can't make all my payments, and we live at the minimum. I have one Jeans buddy, one ....my new wife has not even a diamond ring on her fingers... FRO, what is it good for, absolutely nothing...say it again.... I understand mothers need support, but not the rich. Or should I know roll out the carper of Parental Alination of my ex-wife. The list goes on and own ...where is MR. Harper and CO. ??? Any attempt at alienating the children from the other parent should be seen as a direct and willful violation of one of the prime duties of parenthood. And who cares in the cords of Canada....Noooooooooooooooobody is better than FRO... Ps. By the way..there is a lot of water between here and Asia...see you later FRO...:-) My children will grow up without my money....love will find his way. Astalavista Baby...
The FRO is very proud to hide behind the mandate that they only enforce Court Orders, that they do not create them. They seem to forget that the FRO dogs are set upon good paying fathers with nothing more than this in mind. The penalties they impose (not to mention the service charges) are ridiculous, and the treatment of non-custodial fathers is, generally, biased and rude. The presumption of guilt is present simply because we are payors.
That is the problem with the FRO. This is what they refuse to see a problem with.
As for the system, while supporting your children is a responsibility that cannot be ignored, though it is quite often. The system doesn't view the problem as a problem, but more a punishment for not making the marriage/relationship work. This in 1950's thinking.
There are many circumstances that need to be considered, like that of having a new family and the older children needing their fair share. Where it is now set that we pay X for two children, if the father's X children is from his first wife, for example, the current family is short changed. It might be workable that the support is calculated on the total number of children and the % that is due his first wife, based on eligible children is paid out, rather than a simple "guidelines" amount.
First of all thank you for this post. I’m in a similar situation have two children from a prior marriage, got married again and have one child with my wife. My ex-wife has several businesses and is doing very well financially. I am employed and my income has dropped in the last year. However, I do still pay the same amount on child support based on my old income. My question’s I am having. 1.How can I lower my child support based on lower income without a lawyer? (I can’t afford a Lawyer at this time)
2.Is there consideration in court that I have another child now and lower income? Based on my old situation.
3.Will my ex-wife’s situation taken in consideration (style of living VS mine), e.g. she has a big house, big cars, 5 vacations a year, she also shows a minimum income, but draws money out of her own payroll?
4.How can I inform Revenue Canada about that situation?
5.Is there any consideration in court about all the points above, or do I just waste my time?
6.Would it be better to have a Lawyer to ask the court to lower my child support? Again I am not asking for a $25.00 amount based on my ex-wife’s lives style. Is there any chance they consider my points or what is the way I need to go? In summary I don’t have the same income anymore as I used to have. Do FRO people show up in court if you ask to lower the child support. Would appreciate your feedback. Cheers.
How long to fathers in Ontario have to pay child support. It does not mention in my court order until the child will be 18 or until they go to school, University, etc.????
Any help, please.
Buy the way I don't like the FRO, they are not fair. I never missed a payment, setting up the process a couple years ago, their system does not recognize that you are a new payee, so they bill you with a late payment of $30.00 I called them and they said yes they know, but it is their system, and I must pay the interest... This is not fair....
I AM NOT A LAWYER... I had to get that out of the way.
You can lower child support through either an agreement (form 15 see links at the bottom of this) but this suggests your wife is willing to see things your way. If not you need to file an Application to Vary Support, this is not a simple form but is best created with the help of a lawyer. I'll see what I can find on that (too). I had created my own, but a lawyer was required (the courthouse legal help was difficult to work with - uninterested in giving any manner or full answer)
The courts do not consider that you have another child, they can consider that you have a lower income, but be prepared to defend youself and not being underemployed. If the judge feels you are underemployed (deliberately) he will impute your income and this is based on his opinion and not on any sense of reality.
Your ex-wife's income is not considered when determining how much support you should be paying.
Revenue Canada (CRA) is not concerned with your Child Support issues. If you can explain why they might be interested maybe I'll understand this better.
The courts are not considerate of much, you MAY be able to argue "undue hardship" but this is a tough sell. Will it be a waste of time, perhaps, but this is the problem with the court system, you need to understand that there is a bias against you.
I hate to say it, but the use of a lawyer is beneficial, but you do NOT want a bargain basement lawyer, they are cheap for a reason in my opinion. Your best approach is to apply to the court for a reduction in support to the guideline amount based upon your current income, you can suggest that the current amount is an undue hardship and you will absolutely need to fill out the Financial Statement forms. These are long and complex. Do as much legwork before you approach the lawyer, it can reduce the costs and do wonders for your understanding of this, if you have vacation time available, use it to get prepared.
BTW: In court... KEEP YOUR COOL NO MATTER WHAT. If you find the right lawyer, let them do the talking. As for the "Underemployed" label, bring as much proof as you can that your inductry pays less or that you have made an effort to maintain your income. Though, I provided proof of 400+ applications for employment and the judge still turned around and asked me if I "knocked on doors" rather than strictly e-mailing or faxing people.
The FRO lawyers do not show up for non-FRO actions.
Quote:You can lower child support through either an agreement (form 15 see links at the bottom of this) but this suggests your wife is willing to see things your way. If not you need to file an Application to Vary Support, this is not a simple form but is best created with the help of a lawyer. I'll see what I can find on that (too).
Hello Cameron, thank you for your information. I'm assuming you are referring to my EX-WIFE and not to my current wife. And I wish she will see things my way, good try. I guess I will have no other choice and pay what I have to pay, based on my old income. As you can see, and based on your long replay it is a crazy system. If you consider the cost of a Lawyer and the whole energy and time spend on this, I will most likely spend more than ever. Again, go to you MPP and show him my post, it is an unfair system and I don't have a money tree, but I'm working on it. I do it like the other guy, leave the country or kill myself. I see my children 6 times a year and they are 15 minutes away from me...My ex never drives them, I do drive all the time...since many years, but I just moved closer the last year, before I was 120 KM away (one way) and I did see them every 2 weeks...she never drove...not even half way... I
What will happen if a paying father has a heart condition or any other health challenges and can't work, will the FRO help to pay the support for the mothers?
The short answer is no. The FRO will come after you for the existing court order, but it's up to the payor to do that Application to Vary and get things changed, the guidelines will be applied to the welfare or EI unless that "undue hardship" argument is successful.
Buddy, forget "undue hardship" your wasting your time and money in the courts of Canada with that shit. Yes there is undue hardship...but the court's don't want to hear that....Welcome to the modern site of corruption in our society. And stop mention it in your post's wist of time....let's focus to bring people in here, this is a 2 man show...go public...btw, how is your MPP, I guess he was just waiting for you the other day, ready to change the world...:-)they don't have the balls those guys...Good luck and thanks for getting this post going....
How long to fathers in Ontario have to pay child support. It does not mention in my court order until the child will be 18 or until they go to school, University, etc.????
Any help, please.
Buy the way I don't like the FRO, they are not fair. I never missed a payment, setting up the process a couple years ago, their system does not recognize that you are a new payee, so they bill you with a late payment of $30.00 I called them and they said yes they know, but it is their system, and I must pay the interest... This is not fair....
I'm not betting on the MPP, it's one of those things, you hope they will show interest because if you don't hope, you have nothing.
RE: Undue Hardship, yes, the courts certainly have a hard time understanding that circumstances change. The reason? Ask a judge when they last had a drop in pay or got fired? that's right, those that judge have exactly ZERO understanding of the REAL world.
Normally it's 18 years old, but terminating support involves the courts. Unless there's some reason why support shouldn't end it should be a day or two in court after filing the right forms. Yes, this might be a Utopian description, but... in theory.
As for the $30... talk to the next person's boss, then the next... call on your MPP. It's $30... not much in the big scheme of things, but I had to get in there and argue (er, discuss) an accounting issue with them before they corrected it.
Isn't it funny that they won't provide you a Staement of Account for free? They're the only institution that handles money and can charge you to find out if they've robbed you! Oh, I'm sorry, they let you have 1... ONE! at no charge. (I've had two because they were incapable of basic math).
I feel for all of your stories on this site. I was also a victim of the legal system several years ago when I got divorced, with one daughter from the marriage, (3 years old at the time). Cameron makes several excellent points and presents a wonderful sense of moderation and support. Many who visit this site may be looking for any kind of help, from my perspective of many years between now and the 'D', stay involved in your childs life, do not lose your temper in front of a judge, are IMHO, the best of many points presented here, they served me well through my time in the system. Stay deeply involved with the process and do not implicitly trust your lawyer, from what I have witnessed, they are not always out for your, or your childs, best interests, as that may pay less. conduct yourself with dignity, pretent your child is watching how you conduct yourself through this toughest of times, be a real role model. Be an adult and take responsibility for your actions, stand up for yourself, and realize that you cannot control the actions of your former spouse. I have found this process to be the toughest thing I have ever been through, as my situation was a spouse after money, I can sympthize. At times it is heartbreaking. Rely on your friends, get councilling when it is overwhealming, I did, glad they were there. Keep your chin up and make your children proud, know that you are not alone. p.s. the FRO is an enforcement agency, and cannot change any judgement put to them without your former spouses agreement, or a revised court order. (I also am not a lawyer)
My income has dropped since almost 9 month I make very much less than I used to make. I just call my ex and told her my new T4 is coming if she is willing to accept a lower amount on child support and if she would inform the FRO that she will be ok with that......OH my gosch what a mistake...she was blaming me for all kinds of things under the sun..she needs therapy... Now I have to go to court...and waist my time and money....BS...to prove that my income has dropped..she said the judge will say why you leave your well paid job anyway...what kind of comment is that....
That is a normal (while unfortunate) response. Now the answers you'll need for the judge are why your income went down and what you've been doing to return to that level of pay. You may need to locate a salary survey to assist in this if your previous position's pay-scale has dropped. If you are in a different role (not the same sort of job) you need to explain soundly why you're in a different role.
A letter from a recruiter *may* help. The thing is... judges don't understand how anyone's pay can go down because they keep getting paid more each year without any real threat of termination.
Yes, this is an uphill battle, but stay cool and get ALL of the facts you need in order. While having a lawyer is ideal, failing that option, just be sure everything is organized to present to a judge as needed.
*NOTE: JUDGES LIKE 12 POINT DOUBLE-SPACED PRINT... Times New Roman is the easiest to read.
Thanks Cameron, Well I'm getting older and the job I was doing was in the Restaurant business...my new wife was also not working, now she is...I'm getting older and I will not be accepted in those position any-more, also my health is going down the drain, my bones are in pain to make a living. I started to do this in 1983..Kitchens are hart work...Thanks for this Blog
It's one thing to be in a position to offer help to those who need it, but it's something else altogether where we have established a system where people can make life choices with full expectation that somebody else will pay for them. Fuck the FRO Fuck the system..Fuck you all. Fuck the Ex in her... :-0
RE: Leaving the country... I'll do a blog on that in itself.
RE: Jack Layton... Okay... I'll be pestering him too... but obviously he doesn't get my vote. Thank you for bringing that to my attention (OUR) attention.
RE: Restaurant worker. I hear you... It's a fear I face as time goes my in my job too. With the market crash and such, 2009 is worrying me more and more.
BTW: I believe the use of the word "child support" was not OUR aspect of child support, but rather child benefits (as doled out by the government). I'll verify.
I hope all of you are happy with the LIBERAL PARTY appointed judges we have, they are the ones making these stupid decisions. Keep voting LIBERAL Toronto and that's what you get, you fools, OPEN your eyes!
While the judges are currently under a Liberal government, the problem is not related to who put these judges in office. I'm fairly certain my judge was not brought in under the Liberals. This is not, unfortunately, a Federal election issue, it is handled at the Provincial level. Your MPP is the key. Send him/her a link to this site and ask them for help. They will likely forward to the Minister of he Attorney General but we need ALL of our MPPs to hear about this.
I am in the same boat, it's getting tough. My ex-wife does not want to hear how I live my life she just like my Money but she has plenty of it...I am going under...slowly...It's hard when you can't see your children because you can't afford a weekend with them but you pay over $1300.00 on child support through the FRO. Can you send this to the MPP in Oakville, and tell him I move into his basement next week with my wife and baby, because my house it up for sale..My ex-wife does not need my money she only likes my blood...Ps. I believe this whole post/blog will go nowhere...at lest not the next 10 years those MPP's have to worry about their own paycheck
Yes... I will. Research and time... but maybe this weekend. Now I have commented on abandonment, and that as much as the pressures are, it's just not cool to walk away, but I'll see how to put the ex-pat spin on this.
I too am going through hell. When I seperated I basically gave her everything so that my kids wouldnt have to suffer. I have 2 kids. 5 and 3.
I pay $945 based on my old salary and now I am making a bit more she wants more. when you take into consideration all the monies she recieves for child tax benefits and other government support she is pulling in about $$63K after tax
Once I pay out the child support and daycare I am making roghly $31K after taxes.
WHERE IS THIS FAIR. she is pulling in $30K more then me a year.
I am 32 years old and have to live with my parents because I just cant afford to get a place to live. I would be living credit card to credit card.
Even asking her to lower the payments just gets me a lame answer of "Oh I rely on that money" Yeah to go to Mexico, Vegas, Buy a 50" Plasma
She has just recently purchaced a new house jointly with her new Boyfriend. Now they have his income to play with.
I hear those other fathers when they say they cant aford stuff and feel bad when there kids come to a sub standard of living. I cant afford to do fun things with the kids. I cant get them things they want. This tears me up inside.
I feel I am a responsible father who is paying his support but c'mon ppl these guidelines are unfair.
Why is the wifes income not calculated into what is paid.
What pisses me off is she can get a raise/new job and make $100K and I still have to pay the same amount. WHERE IS THE FAIRNESS HERE.
Im not asking to NOT pay support. but seriously help us out too and let us try and lead a normal life too.
I found this blog by accident .I'm no lawyer , but I studied Family law for over six month to gain joined custody of my child which took 9 month , which I did successfully .
I Feel sorry for all of you here and mostly the father . I know exactly how fathers are treated in Canada , it is very sad .
My advice to all fathers :
1-You can Make life like Hell for your ex in a very calm and legal manner . There are 53 Organiztoin that care about children interest In Ontario alone . I was on my Six when my ex started to change her attitude and beged for peace .
Drinking , Gambeling , Neglagace,Drugs ,,etc Accuse of anything you might see it fit , if she is being unfair to you . The problem with most men in this country is that they have accepted the defeat , they Play the roll of victim ( which no one respect ) in stead of standing up for themselves and their right as Human being .
2-Women in general are the same , no matter how educated they become . They are either 5 below Zero or 5 above Zero(if you are lucky ) and it never goes beyond that ,So treat them accordingly .
3- If some make your life like Hell , do not cry about it , Be a man and make their life Hell too . That is the only way for anything to go forward ,,, Being Passive and accepting abuse only make things worst .
4-Never leave any Cash in your accounts , because when the time comes , it will be heading to your ex's Pocket .
5-FRO is an organization , that have a set of rules that they implement . THEY ARE NOBODY . They are the middle man , they simply implement the orders and the consequeces of no obying them , there is really no reason to argue with them or try to seek their understanding or respect . They do not know you and they really do not want to know you .
You have to go backward to solve your problem , Your real problem .
My advice to all fathers , Start by reading Family law act 10 times .
I take small comfort in knowing that I'm not alone. I have three children with my ex who I left after I found she was cheating on me for the third time. I made the decision to leave as I could not handle that heart break anymore. It was hard because of my children, I was and still am very much part of their lives. I have no issues getting access. She (the ex) enjoys not having the children often. That being said, my children often complain they are bored with me and don't understand why I can't take them to fun places other than our local free park. They are young they don't understand why I can't buy them gifts. I live in a small 2 bedroom apartment that costs 660 plus. They share one room when they are here. I am often borrowing money from family and not paying them back just to get by. They understand fortunately, but it is not their responsibility to feed my children or put gas in my tank so I can get them. Their mother, has a brand new van with built in tv and other luxury features, a new large wide screen tv. Heaps of great clothes, all the luxury gismos. I can't even afford basic cable or a telephone. I haven't had new clothes for 2 years. People think I make good money because of where I work, but after I pay support I have not even enough to pay my own way. I sacrifice everything so that I can feed the kids when they are with me. I borrow dvds from relatives to entertain them. How long would it take for your kids to get bored of that routine? The ex's boyfriend makes good money as does she. They live in a large house with a large back yard. The kids say, I wish you weren't poor dad. I know you would get me an xbox game if you weren't poor dad. This eats me up inside. I have thought about doing away with myself at one point. I wont because I love my kids too much to hurt them that way. Woman will say your a good father to me. Woman will say that I am doing the right thing. Am I? Is it right for my kids to see me this way? Is it right that without me telling them the difference, they feel sorry for me. Its more than just about money for crying out loud. Its about the complexities in a fathers relationship with their children. From their point of view, I am dad and they love me, but they would rather not spend the time they do with me. They see dad as the lonely poor guy. Lets talk about the social aspect. I can't afford to date. I can't afford to mingle with my friends. I have been reduced to something quite pathetic. I think equalizing household incomes is the only fair solution. I have my children often. I feed them 6 suppers out of 14. Please if anyone who can make a differance reads this.. Please make the changes in law that will protect a good and caring father from being dealt this. I would never see my children go without, and when they are with their mother who has excess, there is no worries. Why would I want to see them do without when they are with me. Why would the government want children to go without no matter what parent they are with? Why is it ok to impoverish children sometimes when they need not be at all?
I hear you. We're all hoping someone starts listening. Don't give up, my kids went through the same thing and they didn't think Dad was any less a Dad. They understood and they are as close as ever with me.
I am the wife of a man that has to pay child support for a child that he did not father but yet he felt he should do the right thing. He's been denied visitation for 9 years and the child has been told that that is not her real father. I think fro needs to open a site to embarase mothers that spend their support for their children on Crack!! Not all fathers are dead beat dads, Men need a assistance program to help them when they tried to do the right thing and then just get screwed over and over gain!!
The women are better hung today then the men...There was one comment about termination of support. By the time the support termination forms were put into place it took just over 6 months for it to stop. My son came to live with me and I filed right away. Those 6 months worth of payments that I had made to the FRO were not re embursed...the money went to her and it was up to me to take her to small claims court to get the money back. So ya...you might as well just bend over
I am bringing to your attention that no one has commented on yet. My husband has without exception payed his child support obligations and thankfully has had no issues with FRO up until now. He is still paying child support for a child who is 27 years old with a 3 year old of her own. She has not been in school since she was 16 years old and has been on her own collecting welfare since the age of 18. We tried hiring a lawyer to end child support when his Daughter was 17 in hopes it would force her mother to make sure the daughter got back into school. Not only did the Daughter not get back in school it was suggested by OUR lawyer that we should pay MORE in spousal support than we were paying in combined child and spousal. My husband recently applied to the FRO to have child support stopped since his daughter is by no definition a CHILD of the marriage. They sent a letter to his ex. asking for verification and surprise of surprise she disagreed so nothing can be done. Unless we return to court and roll the dice. In my opinion The FRO are aiding and abetting a felon who is taking money fraudulantly. Anyone have any suggestions for us.
...and then there are the dads out there like my ex: rich as hell, wouldn't pay court ordered support, being garnished, went to work for a friend who owns his own business and now the business won't pay. And what has the FRO done? NOT ONE THING.
I have waited, and waited, and been nice, been patient. I know exactly what kind of SOB my ex is so I saved whatever I could to make sure I had a cushion so that when he found a way around paying my kids and I would be ok. And we were, for three months.
Now it's been five months and the FRO still can't make this employer pay. But my ex still has the money to drag my butt to court with his lawyer in tow.
Maybe the FRO should try aligning support payments with access visits. No pay, no access. Betcha my ex would pay then. Or maybe he'd just go away and leave my kids and me alone. Which would almost be better, then my kids wouldn't cry that they don't want to see him all the time.
...You're absolutely right, these are the true Deadbeats, they are the reason that the good (but broke) fathers who feel wrongly persecuted are being persecuted. The FRO is powerless (or something) in this fight and many women simply give up because it's so much of a battle. This is wrong, but restricting access is a tough call. I hear what you say and understand, but once a law is made to restrict access unless payments are made you're hurting the relationship between the father and children. As well, if that was made law, then many good fathers who simply can't pay would be losing access to their children. Again, that would hurt the children and we can't, fairly, pursue that.
Re: your above response to my post, yes, you're absolutely right. But we're talking about a chronic "deadbeat" here, not a good supporting dad who has just lost a job and needs to have the support reduced.
I work as a clerk in a Family Law office and the amount of lee-way a judge has to interpret situations is, in my opinion, enough to allow a mom where there has been chronic non-payment of support, to file a Motion to have the "deadbeat's" access revoked. Cause of action would need to be established, etc., on the Applicant's part. I'm certainly not suggesting a blanket law that says if you're behind a month, no access that month. Good grief, no.
But for these payors, men or women, who expect to continue not paying their support for months at a time, several times a year, there should be more enforcement action available to the custodial parent.
The issue there is that you trust a judge's perception and that (s)he can be unbiased when looking over a case.
In my situation it became obvious that my judge felt I was "underemployed" so he imputed income. What he missed is that, at the time, there were no/few tech-jobs and while I was underemployed, it was not by choice. I was working very hard and was transparent with my ex-wife as to my finances.
While I see your intent, I would have great concern offering a judge this level of control, especially when you're effectively making this a kids for cash situation. There are a number of fathers that would simply walk away, justified in that sort of decision. It's a slippery slope and if this did happen I think we'd have more issues, more kids without Dads.
The FRO, as an organisation, is a disaster. They "only follow court orders" when they want to. They are careless and a point of frustration for lawyers, custodial, and non-custodial parents. The system, the judges involved, while they may be good people, do not always judge in fairness, presuming the worst of fathers because of true Deadbeat Dads.
I'm a paying dad that pays 831 per month. I live in a basement apt. She lives in a 600k modern home with her new husband. My son is 16 and I look forward to the day this monthly payment ends (part of me sadly hopes he doesn't want to attend university). When officially will this end??? What course of action must I prepare for for that day? So many thoughts about this messed up and unfair system. My greatest revenge? Stay cool, work hard, claim everything on income tax (don't leave any skeletons in your closet for later). Pray... the good Lord really is in control of it all... think about freedom day often... call my son and try to see him as much as possible even though he really isn't interested (don't worry about that... think about how his mind will grow and mature and one day the light goes on and he realizes the deep love you have for him). Thanks for letting me ramble... best revenge is stay cool and earn as much as you can... don't get into too much debt like I did and soon the unfair monthly payment won't be as big a bite as it now is... remember God is in control of ALL the money in this wretched world anyway... thanks for your blog
I want to first say that you're dealing with this in a very healthy way, and yes the Lord does have us covered and we don't need to worry about the day-to-day "carp" that makes life difficult, like money.
That "freedom day" will require some planning and may/will depend upon your son's choice to attend university. I'm encouraging my daughter to get a job because I don't expect there to be a great deal of money around for post-secondary education. I'm not a lawyer, and while I've heard that the "freedom day" process is much easier to establish in B.C., in Ontario I believe you need to attend court to establish that your son is no longer living at home and that he is not attending University, or that he will be attending university, but not living at home and you'll be assisting with those costs. $831 monthly could go a long way towards an education. There are forms that cover the basics, and I'd advise the use of a lawyer, or at least a visit with the lawyers at the courthouse that are there as part of legal aid. While sometimes they seem disinterested, I know there are lawyers that are available to offer good advice though this service.
If your son is intent on attending university and you have any influence, offer to assist his living on campus or attending a school that would nudge him out of your wife's house.
I have read through all these comments...what would you do if you have a court order and your ex is working but under the table, and once we separated he went on welfare...he is strong and healthy and now as per FRO they cannot enforce my court order, and now i cannot afford a lawyer.
Does anyone know if FRO has to supply some sort of 'proof' that the child is ACTUALLY attending post secondary? She turned 18 in August 2011, I stopped paying support in September 2011, after many many unsuccessful attempts to see/contact her over the years, I had no idea what she was doing. To get a letter from FRO in December saying we now had an arrears for support... No proof, no explanation, nothing, just a letter saying they were going to take my license and garnish my wages. So, my financial statement is filled out and sent in, to be noted, I am now remarried with 3 children under the age of 12, my wife stays home as our youngest son (adopted) was born addicted to crack cocaine and is special needs, so money is tight, and our proposal was only an extra $52 a month to 'catch up' on the arrears, FRO calls me today saying I'm a deadbeat dad! Yeah, no I'm not, child support had ALWAYS been paid up until she was 18! Now all of a sudden and without any sort of proof, we are supposed to just pull $3000 out of our a$$ to pay the arrears when we live almost paycheck to paycheck as it is ????? Just a little confused and would appreciate ANY ideas on what I should do from this point! Thank you.
Firstly, as for the post of March 31st, 2012. What I would do... Your ex is not being responsible, but the FRO are useless at determining and prosecuting the people who are the problem, and extremely proficient at prosecuting the people that are not. I know of many people in this situation and, sadly, they simply give up on ever receiving money from the non-custodial parent. Why? Because sometimes the fight is worse than the loss. It's not fair and the government, and society, should not allow it.
As for the termination of support payments without a court order or agreement (comment of April 3rd, 2012): This would be okay in B.C. but you should know, and must understand that a court order to the FRO is nothing more than a directive. If your ex can't be civil enough to communicate with you about your child, use the court. I'm sorry you've become the victim, but the reality ALL OF US must accept is that you're on the hook for life if the mother so chooses you to be. You have no choice but top use the courts if you can't communicate effectively with the other parent.
I'm disgusted with the system and thankful that I have some manner of communication with my ex-wife. No matter how painful, this is the better way in these matters.
57 comments:
fro sucks!! it takes no account of the father who wants to see his child but meets hard times with a princess for an ex whos only thought is money!!!
Hi anon,
Yes, the FRO can "suck", and you are anything but alone. I've seen this side of them and you need to stand tall and focus on your son or daughter's best interests. Don't give up contact and think about how you can be the best parent you can be. It's tough, very tough, but from experience stay on the best side of this. It'll look better for you and never, EVER, reflect a negative tone when referring to your ex around your child.
Anonymous - The FRO was set up for obvious reasons... what if the mother of your child met hard times, would you provide extra for her if you had the means - doubtful...
I am a single mother who has not received child support for over a year - not a dime. My ex has never paid for childcare, extra-curricular or medical expenses.
I have encouraged a relationship with our son because it is in our son's best interest.
It's time to take responsibility on both an emotional and financial level - I am sure any amount would be appreciated.
My ex doesn't pay me because he says, "you have enough money". Time to be a man and start contributing financially.
Hi "anonymous",
You said, "would you provide extra for her if you had the means - doubtful..."
It's funny that you can offer an opinion on me with absolutely no knowledge of my circumstances. In fact, before the FRO was involved I was very willing to, and did, raise and lower the support amount as my income would allow.
I'm sorry that you have not received support, this is both unfair and immoral and I DO NOT agree with those men (non-custodial parents) that neglect this responsibility. The FRO is there to help people like you, but there needs to be understanding too.
I am very happy to hear you encouraging the relationship with your son. That's very good of you and you should be commended.
You ex's excuse of "you have enough money", is heard around the world where child support laws are in-place. While I can see it having some merit sometimes, generally this is a lame excuse for irresponsible behaviour.
Pop me an e-mail if you want to discuss this more, but I'm glad you're as responsible as you are. You're a good example.
Cameron,
I was not directing my comment to you but to the other poster. Sorry if you took it that way...
I will always take responsibility for my son and sacrifice. I have always put his needs before mine especially on the financial side.
He will appreciate the love, security and stability I have provided for him. Too bad his dad doesn't appreciate what I do.
His answer is to go for 50/50 so he doesn't have to pay me.
The hardest part is that his father is his role model and his behaviour is certainly not what I want my son to emmulate.
Sorry for the confusion on who you were referring to...
It may seem insufficient, but when it comes to you son's role model, the only thing you can do is keep the dialogue open about responsibilities and ethics/morality. Show him the right path and be consistent. Children are smarter than we give them credit for, they will see the good if they see the benefit.
"I will always take responsibility for my son and sacrifice. I have always put his needs before mine especially on the financial side." - I wish more people could do this, on either side.
fro is just another extention of the seriously flawed family law system. descrimination, gender bias, legalized extortion and infringements on one's civil rights are just the tip of the iceberg!
been caught up in it all for 12 years now, just went to court for the third time and now considering the fourth. never gets easier for me, just keeps costing me more and more money as the years go by....
every time my income changes I must go back to court, and face a hypicrit judge and vendictive ex who have no concerns about my financial circumstances and living standards that reflect on my relationship with the child i'm forced to support by handing over more money than I can afford and going into arrears over and over again not to mention the lower living standards and lifesyle I bring my child into when she visits me.
what good is a financial statement as part of a affitdavit, if its never considered in family court? been there 3 times now and has never made a difference.
now directly about the fro...
last time I was forced into court
cause I wanted to keep my license. went into arrears cause I was paying and not paying when I couldn't for 6 years based on a higher income, not to mention the "extra ordinary expences" (baby sitting)for a 14 yr old child.
those in arrears forced to aquire a refraing to keep the fro from taking your driver's license away take note...
part of the process is you must agree to vary you existing court order, but you might not be aware that before the order actually goes before the court, be it 1 month, 3 months or 6 months your must enter a repayment agreement with the FRO until your existing amount of CS on your existing court order is changed.
a representative, usually some family lawyer you have seen before, steps up and becomes someone you must appease by offering a set amount of money for ongoing support and money towards the arrears that you may or may not have incurred. if it is not satisfactory to him/her, then you have the option of having the judge decide for you. you can bargain back and forth with the FRO lawyer but you can count on paying even more than you already did. i agreed to a repayment schedual to fro that almost doubled my already unaffordable
monthly payment. i agreed to the terms of the fro lawyer because i feared the judge that put me in that position in the first place.
so after that is said and done, 1 month later my existing court order was changed. my monthly ongoing payment was reduced by a whole $25 per month, my arrears were set to $0 and kissed all the extra money i did over pay over 6 yrs based on a higher income and the extra (baby sitting money)on top of that, as well as the last increased money that the fro lawyer forced me to pay in my last court appearance before the court order was actually changed. oh by the way I also managed to change the visitation on the order originally dictated to me by the court of when i could see my daughter to letting her decide when she wanted to see me since in the courts she is of the age to decide for herself.
over the years i have been to a few mpp's offices to get on the fro's case about arrears, credits and garnishment mismanagement and plain old mistakes and the time it takes for the fro to fix them.
to all the people who oppose my views and opinions regarding the family courts, child support and the FRO, its obvious that your not to educated and experienced in the negative effects and the toll it takes on peoples lives. they treat you like a criminal not a parent and have no respect for you if your the payor.
this is about fair child support? show me and my daughter the fairness, explain to her why there is nothing to eat or why we can't always do what she wants to or why its boring for her when she visits.
do me the favor and explain what "a childs best interests" really means.
its all about the money not the
"best interests of the child" thats my experience thus far.
all the fro is there for is to keep the money rollin' in. nothing else matter's.
Thank you for posting.
Sadly... You're absolutely right.
While I recommend adherence and payment, the FRO, when called into involvement are a like a savage and mindless dog in a fight, not concerned for the welfare of anyone but rather concerned with winning the case regardless of circumstances.
I have been through what you have been through, and I work to remain in compliance, twinging with fear when I have a pay increase because if a crash comes, I'll be forced into arrears because my income drops. Saving money is not only difficult but pointless, enjoying it now, spending it on my accommodation and so my kids are happy here the 2 days out of 14, rather than losing it when a judge considers me under-employed and drops another debt of arrears on me. (Judges, who don't actually *work* at anything other than being biased and prejudiced.)
You said, "...they treat you like a criminal not a parent and have no respect for you if [you're] the payor." = You are absolutely right. This is the disposition of the people inside the "system" (The FRO, the judges, the police when involved. etc.)
All I can say is hang in there. Love your kids as much as possible and don't ever give up. I know you might want to sometimes, but don't, really, you know you can't, you're a parent.
Send this link to your MPP. Show them that you are not the lone father that is a contradiction to the title of Deadbeat Dad, but one of many.
O.K. How do we change this? I am the wife and mother to two small children. My husband pays support for ONE child from a previous relationship. I would like to see all of his kids have equal 'right' to their fathers money. I think more people need to get togther to work towards positive change for a system that can adapt to different circumstances. Our economy is going down the tubes and men are going in arrears all over the place because there are no jobs! That hardly makes them deadbeats. Will employers see their picture on the web and in turn make it more difficult to get a good job? this obviously not the answer. Write to MP's to take some pointer's from Australia, change the system so there isn't so much unwarranted entitlement 'for the sake of the children' Some guys do really want the best for their kids, no matter what the law, ex's or the whole system has lead people to believe.
My ex-wife owns 3 day cares she runs a payroll and shows $24,000.00 annual income for herself.
A big house, 2 SUV’s in the drive way 4-6 exclusive vacations a year, all the newest toys like iPhone etc. she also drinks (starts about after breakfast) her entire live is a party. Her parents have millions and she has a very good accountant. I am employed just moved out from a one bedroom apartment, I got remarried in 2004 we just had a new baby, I have about $100,000.00 depth…increasing. I just got laid off and I am without income for the last 6 weeks, however I am not entitled to receive unemployment money, I pay $1250.00 every month on child support…It looks like I have to file bankruptcy…I am not sure if I can make it….I borrowed money to have a townhouse where I can start raise my new family, I would like to know what the FRO has to say now. And by the way, my ex-wife was the one who wanted me out of her life because she used to go and have all the boyfriends she wanted. Where is the fairness in this country, if I can’t not even pay my own bills first? My two children who live with my ex-wife have everything they don’t need my money, why does the court not listen to fathers like me who have been taken to the cleaners. BIG time. My story is much longer and there is more I need to add but FRO will only stick there head into the sand…they don’t want to hear if honest fathers trying to make a honest point….I guess I go and kill myself and be done with it.
First off... I hear you, but that doesn't help much. I'm glad you posted your situation because I keep pushing this blog in the face of MPs and MPPs (only the MPPs matter, but no, they don't seem to care).
"Where is the fairness in this country, if I can’t not even pay my own bills first?" - I know.
Please do not consider suicide an option, even in jest. There are too many kids that lose their father before they figure out they needed them. Those kids may not be given a need to know you yet, but they'll want it later. My uncle was lucky enough to regain a relationship with his daughter after signing away his rights (many years ago) and he regretted it, luck brought them back together, they're best friends now.
As for the fairness, there is no fairness, only lawyers, judges, and the blind-eye of government. Fathers need to be ever-vigilant, persisting (through non-harassing tactics) in their child(ren)'s lives. Staying available. It will hurt like nothing else, but being available, accessible is what YOUR CHILDREN need. That is the only thing that matters.
Cameron,
Thank you for your message. Don't worry I wont kill myself, that was just a speech. But the system is not right....how come the mother of the children gets away with that, and we live like dogs. What about if you are starting to show more income on your T$ does this have to go to court... I guess not ching, ching...Tax free money for the ex...she is having another party.... Anyway, I not sure what I need to do to survive, I will loose my home, I can't make all my payments, and we live at the minimum. I have one Jeans buddy, one ....my new wife has not even a diamond ring on her fingers... FRO, what is it good for, absolutely nothing...say it again....
I understand mothers need support, but not the rich. Or should I know roll out the carper of Parental Alination of my ex-wife. The list goes on and own ...where is MR. Harper and CO. ??? Any attempt at alienating the children from the other parent should be seen as a direct and willful violation of one of the prime duties of parenthood. And who cares in the cords of Canada....Noooooooooooooooobody is better than FRO...
Ps. By the way..there is a lot of water between here and Asia...see you later FRO...:-) My children will grow up without my money....love will find his way. Astalavista Baby...
FRO sucks....
That was brief, yet to the point.
The FRO is very proud to hide behind the mandate that they only enforce Court Orders, that they do not create them. They seem to forget that the FRO dogs are set upon good paying fathers with nothing more than this in mind. The penalties they impose (not to mention the service charges) are ridiculous, and the treatment of non-custodial fathers is, generally, biased and rude. The presumption of guilt is present simply because we are payors.
That is the problem with the FRO. This is what they refuse to see a problem with.
As for the system, while supporting your children is a responsibility that cannot be ignored, though it is quite often. The system doesn't view the problem as a problem, but more a punishment for not making the marriage/relationship work. This in 1950's thinking.
There are many circumstances that need to be considered, like that of having a new family and the older children needing their fair share. Where it is now set that we pay X for two children, if the father's X children is from his first wife, for example, the current family is short changed. It might be workable that the support is calculated on the total number of children and the % that is due his first wife, based on eligible children is paid out, rather than a simple "guidelines" amount.
First of all thank you for this post. I’m in a similar situation have two children from a prior marriage, got married again and have one child with my wife.
My ex-wife has several businesses and is doing very well financially. I am employed and my income has dropped in the last year. However, I do still pay the same amount on child support based on my old income.
My question’s I am having.
1.How can I lower my child support based on lower income without a lawyer? (I can’t afford a Lawyer at this time)
2.Is there consideration in court that I have another child now and lower income? Based on my old situation.
3.Will my ex-wife’s situation taken in consideration (style of living VS mine), e.g. she has a big house, big cars, 5 vacations a year, she also shows a minimum income, but draws money out of her own payroll?
4.How can I inform Revenue Canada about that situation?
5.Is there any consideration in court about all the points above, or do I just waste my time?
6.Would it be better to have a Lawyer to ask the court to lower my child support? Again I am not asking for a $25.00 amount based on my ex-wife’s lives style. Is there any chance they consider my points or what is the way I need to go? In summary I don’t have the same income anymore as I used to have.
Do FRO people show up in court if you ask to lower the child support.
Would appreciate your feedback. Cheers.
How long to fathers in Ontario have to pay child support. It does not mention in my court order until the child will be 18 or until they go to school, University, etc.????
Any help, please.
Buy the way I don't like the FRO, they are not fair. I never missed a payment, setting up the process a couple years ago, their system does not recognize that you are a new payee, so they bill you with a late payment of $30.00 I called them and they said yes they know, but it is their system, and I must pay the interest... This is not fair....
I AM NOT A LAWYER... I had to get that out of the way.
You can lower child support through either an agreement (form 15 see links at the bottom of this) but this suggests your wife is willing to see things your way. If not you need to file an Application to Vary Support, this is not a simple form but is best created with the help of a lawyer. I'll see what I can find on that (too). I had created my own, but a lawyer was required (the courthouse legal help was difficult to work with - uninterested in giving any manner or full answer)
The courts do not consider that you have another child, they can consider that you have a lower income, but be prepared to defend youself and not being underemployed. If the judge feels you are underemployed (deliberately) he will impute your income and this is based on his opinion and not on any sense of reality.
Your ex-wife's income is not considered when determining how much support you should be paying.
Revenue Canada (CRA) is not concerned with your Child Support issues. If you can explain why they might be interested maybe I'll understand this better.
The courts are not considerate of much, you MAY be able to argue "undue hardship" but this is a tough sell. Will it be a waste of time, perhaps, but this is the problem with the court system, you need to understand that there is a bias against you.
I hate to say it, but the use of a lawyer is beneficial, but you do NOT want a bargain basement lawyer, they are cheap for a reason in my opinion. Your best approach is to apply to the court for a reduction in support to the guideline amount based upon your current income, you can suggest that the current amount is an undue hardship and you will absolutely need to fill out the Financial Statement forms. These are long and complex. Do as much legwork before you approach the lawyer, it can reduce the costs and do wonders for your understanding of this, if you have vacation time available, use it to get prepared.
BTW: In court... KEEP YOUR COOL NO MATTER WHAT. If you find the right lawyer, let them do the talking. As for the "Underemployed" label, bring as much proof as you can that your inductry pays less or that you have made an effort to maintain your income. Though, I provided proof of 400+ applications for employment and the judge still turned around and asked me if I "knocked on doors" rather than strictly e-mailing or faxing people.
The FRO lawyers do not show up for non-FRO actions.
Forms:
http://www.ontariocourtforms.on.ca/english/family
Quote:You can lower child support through either an agreement (form 15 see links at the bottom of this) but this suggests your wife is willing to see things your way. If not you need to file an Application to Vary Support, this is not a simple form but is best created with the help of a lawyer. I'll see what I can find on that (too).
Hello Cameron, thank you for your information. I'm assuming you are referring to my EX-WIFE and not to my current wife.
And I wish she will see things my way, good try. I guess I will have no other choice and pay what I have to pay, based on my old income. As you can see, and based on your long replay it is a crazy system. If you consider the cost of a Lawyer and the whole energy and time spend on this, I will most likely spend more than ever. Again, go to you MPP and show him my post, it is an unfair system and I don't have a money tree, but I'm working on it. I do it like the other guy, leave the country or kill myself. I see my children 6 times a year and they are 15 minutes away from me...My ex never drives them, I do drive all the time...since many years, but I just moved closer the last year, before I was 120 KM away (one way) and I did see them every 2 weeks...she never drove...not even half way...
I
Yes, EX-WIFE, of course...
I can relate on the driving... Been there, done that.
I'm off to bug my MPP.
Lets get some more fathers in here....
What will happen if a paying father has a heart condition or any other health challenges and can't work, will the FRO help to pay the support for the mothers?
The short answer is no. The FRO will come after you for the existing court order, but it's up to the payor to do that Application to Vary and get things changed, the guidelines will be applied to the welfare or EI unless that "undue hardship" argument is successful.
What did that other guy say? "FRO Sucks?"
Buddy, forget "undue hardship" your wasting your time and money in the courts of Canada with that shit. Yes there is undue hardship...but the court's don't want to hear that....Welcome to the modern site of corruption in our society. And stop mention it in your post's wist of time....let's focus to bring people in here, this is a 2 man show...go public...btw, how is your MPP, I guess he was just waiting for you the other day, ready to change the world...:-)they don't have the balls those guys...Good luck and thanks for getting this post going....
How long to fathers in Ontario have to pay child support. It does not mention in my court order until the child will be 18 or until they go to school, University, etc.????
Any help, please.
Buy the way I don't like the FRO, they are not fair. I never missed a payment, setting up the process a couple years ago, their system does not recognize that you are a new payee, so they bill you with a late payment of $30.00 I called them and they said yes they know, but it is their system, and I must pay the interest... This is not fair....
I'm not betting on the MPP, it's one of those things, you hope they will show interest because if you don't hope, you have nothing.
RE: Undue Hardship, yes, the courts certainly have a hard time understanding that circumstances change. The reason? Ask a judge when they last had a drop in pay or got fired? that's right, those that judge have exactly ZERO understanding of the REAL world.
Normally it's 18 years old, but terminating support involves the courts. Unless there's some reason why support shouldn't end it should be a day or two in court after filing the right forms. Yes, this might be a Utopian description, but... in theory.
As for the $30... talk to the next person's boss, then the next... call on your MPP. It's $30... not much in the big scheme of things, but I had to get in there and argue (er, discuss) an accounting issue with them before they corrected it.
Isn't it funny that they won't provide you a Staement of Account for free? They're the only institution that handles money and can charge you to find out if they've robbed you! Oh, I'm sorry, they let you have 1... ONE! at no charge. (I've had two because they were incapable of basic math).
BTW: I know anonymity is great, but if anyone else wants to step-up and use a real name, that'd be great.
I'll work on that petition over the next couple of weeks.
I feel for all of your stories on this site. I was also a victim of the legal system several years ago when I got divorced, with one daughter from the marriage, (3 years old at the time). Cameron makes several excellent points and presents a wonderful sense of moderation and support. Many who visit this site may be looking for any kind of help, from my perspective of many years between now and the 'D', stay involved in your childs life, do not lose your temper in front of a judge, are IMHO, the best of many points presented here, they served me well through my time in the system. Stay deeply involved with the process and do not implicitly trust your lawyer, from what I have witnessed, they are not always out for your, or your childs, best interests, as that may pay less. conduct yourself with dignity, pretent your child is watching how you conduct yourself through this toughest of times, be a real role model. Be an adult and take responsibility for your actions, stand up for yourself, and realize that you cannot control the actions of your former spouse.
I have found this process to be the toughest thing I have ever been through, as my situation was a spouse after money, I can sympthize. At times it is heartbreaking. Rely on your friends, get councilling when it is overwhealming, I did, glad they were there.
Keep your chin up and make your children proud, know that you are not alone.
p.s. the FRO is an enforcement agency, and cannot change any judgement put to them without your former spouses agreement, or a revised court order. (I also am not a lawyer)
Hi Troy,
Thank you very much for sharing your experience and wisdom.
My income has dropped since almost 9 month I make very much less than I used to make. I just call my ex and told her my new T4 is coming if she is willing to accept a lower amount on child support and if she would inform the FRO that she will be ok with that......OH my gosch what a mistake...she was blaming me for all kinds of things under the sun..she needs therapy... Now I have to go to court...and waist my time and money....BS...to prove that my income has dropped..she said the judge will say why you leave your well paid job anyway...what kind of comment is that....
"What kind of comment is that?"
That is a normal (while unfortunate) response. Now the answers you'll need for the judge are why your income went down and what you've been doing to return to that level of pay. You may need to locate a salary survey to assist in this if your previous position's pay-scale has dropped. If you are in a different role (not the same sort of job) you need to explain soundly why you're in a different role.
A letter from a recruiter *may* help. The thing is... judges don't understand how anyone's pay can go down because they keep getting paid more each year without any real threat of termination.
Yes, this is an uphill battle, but stay cool and get ALL of the facts you need in order. While having a lawyer is ideal, failing that option, just be sure everything is organized to present to a judge as needed.
*NOTE: JUDGES LIKE 12 POINT DOUBLE-SPACED PRINT... Times New Roman is the easiest to read.
Thanks Cameron,
Well I'm getting older and the job I was doing was in the Restaurant business...my new wife was also not working, now she is...I'm getting older and I will not be accepted in those position any-more, also my health is going down the drain, my bones are in pain to make a living. I started to do this in 1983..Kitchens are hart work...Thanks for this Blog
How far does it go if you leave the country to avoid child support. e.g if you go to Europe or Asia. Will the FRO look for you?
It's one thing to be in a position to offer help to those who need it, but it's something else altogether where we have established a system where people can make life choices with full expectation that somebody else will pay for them. Fuck the FRO Fuck the system..Fuck you all. Fuck the Ex in her... :-0
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canadavotes/story/2008/09/28/ndp-child.html
RE: Leaving the country... I'll do a blog on that in itself.
RE: Jack Layton... Okay... I'll be pestering him too... but obviously he doesn't get my vote. Thank you for bringing that to my attention (OUR) attention.
RE: Restaurant worker. I hear you... It's a fear I face as time goes my in my job too. With the market crash and such, 2009 is worrying me more and more.
BTW: I believe the use of the word "child support" was not OUR aspect of child support, but rather child benefits (as doled out by the government). I'll verify.
I hope all of you are happy with the LIBERAL PARTY appointed judges we have, they are the ones making these stupid decisions. Keep voting LIBERAL Toronto and that's what you get, you fools,
OPEN your eyes!
While the judges are currently under a Liberal government, the problem is not related to who put these judges in office. I'm fairly certain my judge was not brought in under the Liberals. This is not, unfortunately, a Federal election issue, it is handled at the Provincial level. Your MPP is the key. Send him/her a link to this site and ask them for help.
They will likely forward to the Minister of he Attorney General but we need ALL of our MPPs to hear about this.
I am in the same boat, it's getting tough. My ex-wife does not want to hear how I live my life she just like my Money but she has plenty of it...I am going under...slowly...It's hard when you can't see your children because you can't afford a weekend with them but you pay over $1300.00 on child support through the FRO. Can you send this to the MPP in Oakville, and tell him I move into his basement next week with my wife and baby, because my house it up for sale..My ex-wife does not need my money she only likes my blood...Ps. I believe this whole post/blog will go nowhere...at lest not the next 10 years those MPP's have to worry about their own paycheck
Leaving Canada....You said you will have a new Blogg for that...
Yes... I will. Research and time... but maybe this weekend. Now I have commented on abandonment, and that as much as the pressures are, it's just not cool to walk away, but I'll see how to put the ex-pat spin on this.
sure....
I too am going through hell. When I seperated I basically gave her everything so that my kids wouldnt have to suffer. I have 2 kids. 5 and 3.
I pay $945 based on my old salary and now I am making a bit more she wants more. when you take into consideration all the monies she recieves for child tax benefits and other government support she is pulling in about $$63K after tax
Once I pay out the child support and daycare I am making roghly $31K after taxes.
WHERE IS THIS FAIR. she is pulling in $30K more then me a year.
I am 32 years old and have to live with my parents because I just cant afford to get a place to live. I would be living credit card to credit card.
Even asking her to lower the payments just gets me a lame answer of "Oh I rely on that money"
Yeah to go to Mexico, Vegas, Buy a 50" Plasma
She has just recently purchaced a new house jointly with her new Boyfriend. Now they have his income to play with.
I hear those other fathers when they say they cant aford stuff and feel bad when there kids come to a sub standard of living. I cant afford to do fun things with the kids. I cant get them things they want. This tears me up inside.
I feel I am a responsible father who is paying his support but c'mon ppl these guidelines are unfair.
Why is the wifes income not calculated into what is paid.
What pisses me off is she can get a raise/new job and make $100K and I still have to pay the same amount. WHERE IS THE FAIRNESS HERE.
Im not asking to NOT pay support. but seriously help us out too and let us try and lead a normal life too.
Okay...
I absolutely understand that this seems pointless and empty, but I'm making an effort to get this blog noticed and your voice(s) heard.
I found this blog by accident .I'm no lawyer , but I studied Family law for over six month to gain joined custody of my child which took 9 month , which I did successfully .
I Feel sorry for all of you here and mostly the father . I know exactly how fathers are treated in Canada , it is very sad .
My advice to all fathers :
1-You can Make life like Hell for your ex in a very calm and legal manner . There are 53 Organiztoin that care about children interest In Ontario alone . I was on my Six when my ex started to change her attitude and beged for peace .
Drinking , Gambeling , Neglagace,Drugs ,,etc
Accuse of anything you might see it fit , if she is being unfair to you .
The problem with most men in this country is that they have accepted the defeat , they Play the roll of victim ( which no one respect ) in stead of standing up for themselves and their right as Human being .
2-Women in general are the same , no matter how educated they become . They are either 5 below Zero or 5 above Zero(if you are lucky ) and it never goes beyond that ,So treat them accordingly .
3- If some make your life like Hell , do not cry about it , Be a man and make their life Hell too . That is the only way for anything to go forward ,,, Being Passive and accepting abuse only make things worst .
4-Never leave any Cash in your accounts , because when the time comes , it will be heading to your ex's Pocket .
5-FRO is an organization , that have a set of rules that they implement . THEY ARE NOBODY .
They are the middle man , they simply implement the orders and the consequeces of no obying them ,
there is really no reason to argue with them or try to seek their understanding or respect . They do not know you and they really do not want to know you .
You have to go backward to solve your problem , Your real problem .
My advice to all fathers , Start by reading Family law act 10 times .
http://www.canlii.org/on/laws/sta/f-3/20040802/whole.html
secondly , Use
www.canlii.com
as a referace .
Good luck to all.
I take small comfort in knowing that I'm not alone. I have three children with my ex who I left after I found she was cheating on me for the third time. I made the decision to leave as I could not handle that heart break anymore. It was hard because of my children, I was and still am very much part of their lives. I have no issues getting access. She (the ex) enjoys not having the children often. That being said, my children often complain they are bored with me and don't understand why I can't take them to fun places other than our local free park. They are young they don't understand why I can't buy them gifts. I live in a small 2 bedroom apartment that costs 660 plus. They share one room when they are here. I am often borrowing money from family and not paying them back just to get by. They understand fortunately, but it is not their responsibility to feed my children or put gas in my tank so I can get them. Their mother, has a brand new van with built in tv and other luxury features, a new large wide screen tv. Heaps of great clothes, all the luxury gismos. I can't even afford basic cable or a telephone. I haven't had new clothes for 2 years. People think I make good money because of where I work, but after I pay support I have not even enough to pay my own way. I sacrifice everything so that I can feed the kids when they are with me. I borrow dvds from relatives to entertain them. How long would it take for your kids to get bored of that routine? The ex's boyfriend makes good money as does she. They live in a large house with a large back yard. The kids say, I wish you weren't poor dad. I know you would get me an xbox game if you weren't poor dad. This eats me up inside. I have thought about doing away with myself at one point. I wont because I love my kids too much to hurt them that way. Woman will say your a good father to me. Woman will say that I am doing the right thing. Am I? Is it right for my kids to see me this way? Is it right that without me telling them the difference, they feel sorry for me. Its more than just about money for crying out loud. Its about the complexities in a fathers relationship with their children. From their point of view, I am dad and they love me, but they would rather not spend the time they do with me. They see dad as the lonely poor guy. Lets talk about the social aspect. I can't afford to date. I can't afford to mingle with my friends. I have been reduced to something quite pathetic. I think equalizing household incomes is the only fair solution. I have my children often. I feed them 6 suppers out of 14. Please if anyone who can make a differance reads this.. Please make the changes in law that will protect a good and caring father from being dealt this. I would never see my children go without, and when they are with their mother who has excess, there is no worries. Why would I want to see them do without when they are with me. Why would the government want children to go without no matter what parent they are with? Why is it ok to impoverish children sometimes when they need not be at all?
I hear you. We're all hoping someone starts listening. Don't give up, my kids went through the same thing and they didn't think Dad was any less a Dad. They understood and they are as close as ever with me.
Hang in there. You are NOT alone.
I am the wife of a man that has to pay child support for a child that he did not father but yet he felt he should do the right thing. He's been denied visitation for 9 years and the child has been told that that is not her real father. I think fro needs to open a site to embarase mothers that spend their support for their children on Crack!! Not all fathers are dead beat dads, Men need a assistance program to help them when they tried to do the right thing and then just get screwed over and over gain!!
The women are better hung today then the men...There was one comment about termination of support. By the time the support termination forms were put into place it took just over 6 months for it to stop. My son came to live with me and I filed right away. Those 6 months worth of payments that I had made to the FRO were not re embursed...the money went to her and it was up to me to take her to small claims court to get the money back. So ya...you might as well just bend over
I am bringing to your attention that no one has commented on yet. My husband has without exception payed his child support obligations and thankfully has had no issues with FRO up until now. He is still paying child support for a child who is 27 years old with a 3 year old of her own. She has not been in school since she was 16 years old and has been on her own collecting welfare since the age of 18. We tried hiring a lawyer to end child support when his Daughter was 17 in hopes it would force her mother to make sure the daughter got back into school. Not only did the Daughter not get back in school it was suggested by OUR lawyer that we should pay MORE in spousal support than we were paying in combined child and spousal. My husband recently applied to the FRO to have child support stopped since his daughter is by no definition a CHILD of the marriage. They sent a letter to his ex. asking for verification and surprise of surprise she disagreed so nothing can be done. Unless we return to court and roll the dice. In my opinion The FRO are aiding and abetting a felon who is taking money fraudulantly. Anyone have any suggestions for us.
...and then there are the dads out there like my ex: rich as hell, wouldn't pay court ordered support, being garnished, went to work for a friend who owns his own business and now the business won't pay. And what has the FRO done? NOT ONE THING.
I have waited, and waited, and been nice, been patient. I know exactly what kind of SOB my ex is so I saved whatever I could to make sure I had a cushion so that when he found a way around paying my kids and I would be ok. And we were, for three months.
Now it's been five months and the FRO still can't make this employer pay. But my ex still has the money to drag my butt to court with his lawyer in tow.
Maybe the FRO should try aligning support payments with access visits. No pay, no access. Betcha my ex would pay then. Or maybe he'd just go away and leave my kids and me alone. Which would almost be better, then my kids wouldn't cry that they don't want to see him all the time.
RE: October 6th Comment...
...You're absolutely right, these are the true Deadbeats, they are the reason that the good (but broke) fathers who feel wrongly persecuted are being persecuted. The FRO is powerless (or something) in this fight and many women simply give up because it's so much of a battle. This is wrong, but restricting access is a tough call. I hear what you say and understand, but once a law is made to restrict access unless payments are made you're hurting the relationship between the father and children. As well, if that was made law, then many good fathers who simply can't pay would be losing access to their children. Again, that would hurt the children and we can't, fairly, pursue that.
Hi Cameron,
Re: your above response to my post, yes, you're absolutely right. But we're talking about a chronic "deadbeat" here, not a good supporting dad who has just lost a job and needs to have the support reduced.
I work as a clerk in a Family Law office and the amount of lee-way a judge has to interpret situations is, in my opinion, enough to allow a mom where there has been chronic non-payment of support, to file a Motion to have the "deadbeat's" access revoked. Cause of action would need to be established, etc., on the Applicant's part. I'm certainly not suggesting a blanket law that says if you're behind a month, no access that month. Good grief, no.
But for these payors, men or women, who expect to continue not paying their support for months at a time, several times a year, there should be more enforcement action available to the custodial parent.
~A frustrated Mom who supports Dads.
The issue there is that you trust a judge's perception and that (s)he can be unbiased when looking over a case.
In my situation it became obvious that my judge felt I was "underemployed" so he imputed income. What he missed is that, at the time, there were no/few tech-jobs and while I was underemployed, it was not by choice. I was working very hard and was transparent with my ex-wife as to my finances.
While I see your intent, I would have great concern offering a judge this level of control, especially when you're effectively making this a kids for cash situation. There are a number of fathers that would simply walk away, justified in that sort of decision. It's a slippery slope and if this did happen I think we'd have more issues, more kids without Dads.
The FRO, as an organisation, is a disaster. They "only follow court orders" when they want to. They are careless and a point of frustration for lawyers, custodial, and non-custodial parents. The system, the judges involved, while they may be good people, do not always judge in fairness, presuming the worst of fathers because of true Deadbeat Dads.
Anon says,
I'm a paying dad that pays 831 per month. I live in a basement apt. She lives in a 600k modern home with her new husband. My son is 16 and I look forward to the day this monthly payment ends (part of me sadly hopes he doesn't want to attend university). When officially will this end??? What course of action must I prepare for for that day? So many thoughts about this messed up and unfair system. My greatest revenge? Stay cool, work hard, claim everything on income tax (don't leave any skeletons in your closet for later). Pray... the good Lord really is in control of it all... think about freedom day often... call my son and try to see him as much as possible even though he really isn't interested (don't worry about that... think about how his mind will grow and mature and one day the light goes on and he realizes the deep love you have for him). Thanks for letting me ramble... best revenge is stay cool and earn as much as you can... don't get into too much debt like I did and soon the unfair monthly payment won't be as big a bite as it now is... remember God is in control of ALL the money in this wretched world anyway... thanks for your blog
I want to first say that you're dealing with this in a very healthy way, and yes the Lord does have us covered and we don't need to worry about the day-to-day "carp" that makes life difficult, like money.
That "freedom day" will require some planning and may/will depend upon your son's choice to attend university. I'm encouraging my daughter to get a job because I don't expect there to be a great deal of money around for post-secondary education. I'm not a lawyer, and while I've heard that the "freedom day" process is much easier to establish in B.C., in Ontario I believe you need to attend court to establish that your son is no longer living at home and that he is not attending University, or that he will be attending university, but not living at home and you'll be assisting with those costs. $831 monthly could go a long way towards an education. There are forms that cover the basics, and I'd advise the use of a lawyer, or at least a visit with the lawyers at the courthouse that are there as part of legal aid. While sometimes they seem disinterested, I know there are lawyers that are available to offer good advice though this service.
If your son is intent on attending university and you have any influence, offer to assist his living on campus or attending a school that would nudge him out of your wife's house.
I have read through all these comments...what would you do if you have a court order and your ex is working but under the table, and once we separated he went on welfare...he is strong and healthy and now as per FRO they cannot enforce my court order, and now i cannot afford a lawyer.
Does anyone know if FRO has to supply some sort of 'proof' that the child is ACTUALLY attending post secondary? She turned 18 in August 2011, I stopped paying support in September 2011, after many many unsuccessful attempts to see/contact her over the years, I had no idea what she was doing. To get a letter from FRO in December saying we now had an arrears for support... No proof, no explanation, nothing, just a letter saying they were going to take my license and garnish my wages.
So, my financial statement is filled out and sent in, to be noted, I am now remarried with 3 children under the age of 12, my wife stays home as our youngest son (adopted) was born addicted to crack cocaine and is special needs, so money is tight, and our proposal was only an extra $52 a month to 'catch up' on the arrears, FRO calls me today saying I'm a deadbeat dad! Yeah, no I'm not, child support had ALWAYS been paid up until she was 18! Now all of a sudden and without any sort of proof, we are supposed to just pull $3000 out of our a$$ to pay the arrears when we live almost paycheck to paycheck as it is ????? Just a little confused and would appreciate ANY ideas on what I should do from this point! Thank you.
Firstly, as for the post of March 31st, 2012. What I would do... Your ex is not being responsible, but the FRO are useless at determining and prosecuting the people who are the problem, and extremely proficient at prosecuting the people that are not. I know of many people in this situation and, sadly, they simply give up on ever receiving money from the non-custodial parent. Why? Because sometimes the fight is worse than the loss. It's not fair and the government, and society, should not allow it.
As for the termination of support payments without a court order or agreement (comment of April 3rd, 2012): This would be okay in B.C. but you should know, and must understand that a court order to the FRO is nothing more than a directive. If your ex can't be civil enough to communicate with you about your child, use the court. I'm sorry you've become the victim, but the reality ALL OF US must accept is that you're on the hook for life if the mother so chooses you to be. You have no choice but top use the courts if you can't communicate effectively with the other parent.
I'm disgusted with the system and thankful that I have some manner of communication with my ex-wife. No matter how painful, this is the better way in these matters.
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