The FRO was WRONG...

Okay, it's been a while since my last post. Adjusting my support last year went better than expected and I have since found a job and revised the amount back to a more appropriate level.

The latest "excitement" is that on October 19th the FRO sent me a letter (arr. 2013-10-24) notifying my of being in arrears... Whoa! WAIT A MINUTE. I have been, and I advice any of you, to be ahead of your support payments. Of course this means you need to trust the folks in your version of the FRO to know what they're doing. The folks at the Family Responsibility Office clearly do not. They issued this letter, without advising my case worker, that stated I owed $2015 in Child Support. I was offended and shocked because I work so hard to ensure I'm not in arrears. My calculations are that I'm $249 ahead month to month, at the lowest. My support payments are $566 and the support is paid on the 20th of the month, ahead of the 1st of the month. So, when I'm being accused of being a Deadbeat Dad, I'm rightfully offended!

So I called the FRO (October 25th), they offered no sympathy and couldn't fathom that I was upset, or that the numbers could be wrong. I demanded a Statement of Account, normally a $25 cost to the requester, but how could I defend or understand how I had become an offender without something to back it up? They told me they would send me that SoA. I got off the phone and my stress level was through the roof.

I calmed down and decided this insanity had to stop. I called on the Ontario Ombudsman, a government watchdog as it were, and two days later they called me back. We discussed the case and my concerns, and they went off to talk the FRO. Yesterday I got a call that explained the FRO reviewed their prior conclusion, and, low and behold, they recanted the accusation. They found I was ahead by $249! Wow! What a remarkable coincidence!

Canada Post has yet to deliver that Statement of Account I was promised, and frankly the idea that I would need to PAY these fools anything to understand my account is ludicrous! If you feel that they are in the wrong, call them on it, be polite (more than I was), and push for the information. If they hadn't recanted and didn't provide the SoA (I will have it, one way or another), I would not have come to an agreement with them. The cost will be to determine if they have already tarnished my recovering Credit Bureau reputation, but I have been told that this initiative was halted.

To the credit of my agent, my contact at the FRO, Michelle. These agents have 1600 cases each. How do they cope when payors call and are abusive or simply upset. I don't believe anyone should be abusive, but this topic and these tactics are offensive and will generate agitated callers. Rightfully so. That said, TRY to be calm and collected, even if they are dismissive and arrogant.

Initiating Change: Beginning the termination of support.

It has become necessary to consider both a reduction in support due to a change in circumstances (I have been laid off) and the termination of support for my older daughter as she is turning 18 in the near future. She plans on continuing her education, but not for some time. Her mother insists that she deserves continued support and while I am fine with this if she provides documentation, if she cannot I will need to proceed. After the level of support, and frankly over-payment both by the courts order and my own distrust of the system*, I need to re-open these wounds. I have no choice. This is not a process anyone enjoys, least of all me. My ex-wife clearly believes my choice is one of greed or selfishness, but those people that know me can vouch that this has never been, and will never be, my motivation. Any parent, no matter what the situation, will always ask themselves "am I doing this for the kids" and only if that answer is "yes" should they proceed. I can proceed.

I'll keep you all posted on the process and progress.


* because I had such little faith in the system the last time I was out of work (7 months) I did not pursue a reduction in support, instead I paid the full amount through this time. I also was saddled with an imputed income charge in 2002 that amounted to $15,000 be set as arrears and to be paid over three years. My income was imputed to $35,000 when my actual and true income, was ~$9,000. It was not a matter of being under-employed by choice, but because I'm in tech and that was a time when the .com bubble burst. I endured and survived by driving a tow-truck, roadside assistance, but rather than allow me to build up this role, the system (at my ex-wife's request) took my license and my ability to pay any bills. I had to walk away from and earned zero dollars for months while things were sorted out. I estimate I have over-paid support by ~$18,000. I have been fortunate that my parents were in a position to help.

From a Father... to the FRO

I appreciate the feedback I get from others on their experiences on the system. I offer you a comment from one father:

The amount that I pay per month on a 4 year old is absurd. One would think that I make 2x what I make. At one point after the FRO stepped in, I lost my job. This establishment is like the mob. Arrears started to accumulate. Letter started arriving. My license was taken from me. Then my passport. Tell me: how am I supposed to get to that interview (the only [interview] that I have had in ages thanks to the economy) that is in a city 100km away? I have no money and no license! Gee the FRO, thanks for looking out for the family. We're all so much better off now that you have stepped in! 

Now I'm working again and all paid up with my arrears – it's part of the equalization after to 3 years in court. Guess what!? I just got a letter from the FRO! My passport was just revoked and my license (fourth time) is gone too! 

It turns out that the judges order that states "there are no monies owing to or from either party" is too vague. That's right. Too vague. 

Thanks FRO.

I really wish the government bodies involved would realize that not ALL fathers are Deadbeats... We really need to make this system less adversarial.

Yankee-Bashing Canadian Comedian Seeks Refuge in… America | NewsReal Blog

“The judge even said, if I was paralyzed from the neck down, I would still be responsible for having to earn a million dollars a year.” - Dave Foley [Yankee-Bashing Canadian Comedian Seeks Refuge in… America | NewsReal Blog]

And this is the stupidity of imputed income and the judges that operate in the Ontario Family Court system.

Children Are Not Pawns

Your children are not chess pieces in the life you have after a failed marriage, they are children. You don't play one against your former spouse or make it difficult for them to see that other party. Why, because they are not your property and life is NOT a game.

Some people, such as my ex-wife, are all too ready to call the other parent names, denigrate them or otherwise tarnish the image that your children have for their other parent. They will make up their minds on their own. That said, I would encourage you to ensure that if your son or daughter is unhappy with the other parent, try to help them maintain a positive attitude where possible.

Single fathers feeling trapped in one-sided system - Goderich Signal-Star - Ontario, CA

Single fathers feeling trapped in one-sided system - Goderich Signal-Star - Ontario, CA

Some good coverage...

Wait, did they {gasp} listen to a Payor?

I received a notice this week, and I apologize for not posting this sooner, that the FRO has sent a Notice of Termination of Support Deduction that states that the Department of Justice (FOA) that the FRO "no longer requires [them] to to take support payment deductions..."

Well, this is good news. While I am not sure whether this was due to my FAX or my involvement of my local M.P.P., Dr. Kuldip Kular's office, the result is the same. Now I did find it humorous that my contact at the office was told this process was standard procedure and was not a new action, but rather an old one for the last dance around the courtroom, but I'm certain that's either a smoke-screen or an individual's uninformed observation.

Either way, this teaches us something about dealing with the FRO:

• INVOLVE YOUR M.P.P. 
• BE CLEAR, CRYSTAL CLEAR ABOUT YOUR POSITION
• KNOW YOUR COURT ORDER
• DON'T TRUST THEIR ACCOUNTING (I'm waiting on a Statement of Account BTW)
• USE THEIR FAX LINES, COMMUNICATION IN WRITING IS BEST

Take care people. 

October 14th...

Apparently the due date for payments to the FRO, somehow suggested by the standing court order*, is the 14th of the month. Because I could not pay the FRO by October 14th, 2009 the aforementioned court order was issued. I have several politically incorrect suggestions of what they can do with this action, but these are government employees... enough said.

Now. There are some core problems, problems I have pointed out before, such as the fact that there's no reasonable manner by which to obtain a Statement of Account. While mailing the SoA might be cost prohibitive (and they will charge you $25 for it), if they do not update you as what you owe or when you owe it, then actions like this are harassment. The fee they charge, $190 spread over 5 years, is ridiculous and frankly just a reminder of the stupidity of this agency.

I'm sick of this legal crap. It's taking all of my will not to just swear a blue-streak at this folks, but must REFUSE to give them the satisfaction of * either loosing my cool, or even calling them. I have informed them, by fax of my circumstances throughout my 7 months of unemployment, but now they demand (after this action) that I tell them who my employer is. Legal jargon aside, SCREW-THAT!

The last thing I'm doing for these jokers is helping them deliver further stress and embarrassment at any position I might pick up. In fact, I was straightforward enough to explain to them that I wouldn't be able to pay on time (assuming the due date was October 1st, 2009) and sent them a fax to inform them. Communications is the key, well not with the FRO. We could also swell on the fact that I have consistently, FOR YEARS (since 2003), paid before the funds were due (again, assuming the 1st of the month).

So, what am I to do? Well, I'll pay, I told them I'd pay when I had the funds, and that is this week. You should always pay your child support, but it does seem somewhat outrageous that while you're earning a mere fraction of your wages (or none at all) due to unemployment, you still need to find a way to pay 100% of that child support.

* there is no mention of the monthly payment due date in the standing court order, or the original from December of 2002. Also, since there are no arrears, there's no justification for this action (in my opinion).

Abolsute Lunacy.... The FRO's attempt at murder.

I think you can call it murder when you drive someone to the brink of suicide, the man who received this note isn't suicidal, but I can envision many payers of Child Support, those that have been justifiably unemployed for months because of this horrible economy, could consider this the breaking point.

A man with two children by the same mother, who earned ~$70K per annum, will have a support responsibility of, approximately, $1000. This same man will have an Employment Insurance coverage of about $1600 per month (maximum, $786 - bi-weekly). If he's renting and has his kids on a reasonable arrangement he'll pay about $1200 rent each month for a 2 bedroom apartment. He will also have a frugal $200 per month for basic foods (a little better than KD, every day, period). We'll let that sink in and suggest that he doesn't have a car, or at least car payments because this is painful enough.

So, on $1600/month income you have expenditures of approximately $2400, leaving you overdrawn (monthly) by $800. Simple math. Now, seven months in, you're out of savings, you're getting kinda edgy, desperate, and you've had help from a few friends and family members. Then you get this note from the Department of Justice explaining that whil you have maintained support and have been forthright about earnings and payments being a challenge, the Family Responsibility Office has now garnisheed your income, the $1600, reducing it to $600 per month.

The end of a rope is a dangerous place to be.

This note is real, delivered to someone who had been unemployed for 7 months and owe's nothing, presently, to his children or ex-wife, but the FRO seems to think this is the right course of action. I've got a name for the FRO, Bullies! And we have all seen the ads that tell us Bullying is wrong.

I could rant about the government employees and lawyers that are all to happy to make this happen, but what's worse is that the law makers are in this with them. The insult to this injury is that even if this man got a job tomorrow and could pay his $1000 per month, he's also been insulted with a $190 "fee" for the trouble.

It's time to re-think things. It's time the government discard the FRO, with all of the other broken things they've created, and get smart about support. This is a clear example of how Child Support laws and the systems and agencies that support them are anything but fair.

SPEAK UP! Call, fax, or write or your M.P.P. today.

A Reflection on the Arrogance of Judges.

I was just reading a story in the Toronto Star about a Teen fighting for right to care for brothers speaks publicly on his family's 'warfare' and had to make the observation about the chronology included with the article that the findings of a medical profession, St. Joseph's psychiatrist Dr. Nagi Ghabbour, are disregarded by the Judge, Justice Van Melle. Since when does a Judge have more knowledge and ability to assess a psychiatric disorder than a medical professional?

This story, this tragedy, is why parents need to stop using their children as weapons. It is also a demonstration of how the system is beyond reproach regardless of their abilities and influenced by their biases.

While Parental Alienation is a big problem that needs to be addressed, the Judge needs to respect the knowledge and understand of others, whether that is a parent, medical professional, or common sense. This judge would seem biased, tainted, and arrogant in the area of justice. If this situation were reversed, and the mother had custody and was the one on welfare, the judge would have assigned the kids to their father, this is the awful truth of the problems within this system.

To Daniel, good luck and bravo for standing up for your siblings, though, it may be better if the child support was to help accommodate an apartment of your own as a middle ground, a sanctuary for all parties until they (the parents) can grow up.

Doing the Math...

I had posted a variation of this to another of my blogs, but thought it worth posting here too.

I knew all along the place I live was expensive, the fact that it costs $1250 per month is only part of the costs and the rest was managable on my income, but I told myself it was okay because it's a great place for my kids to grow up. I still feel this way.

BUT... The reality is that on Employment Insurance (max. $800, bi-weekly) the reality of financial peril is something I need to face.

Costs:

RENT: $1250
CS*: $1100
HYDRO:$ 200
GAS: $ 60
FOOD: $ 200
PHONE:$ 200 (incl. Internet/Cable)
BUSES:$ 90 (reduced cost for tickets while looking)
===========
TOTAL:$3100

So... I would need to move to a place that I could rent for ... Okay, so they'd need to pay me.

If you're reading this you likely know what CS stands for, that's Child Support. I have a responsibility to pay that. It does not go away should I lose my job. I have asked (by e-mail) my ex-wife for some understanding* in this, but my intention is to pay while I can.

I could rant on about the "system" but I won't. There's really no point, they can only demonstrate their compassion by actions. I have my responsibility, get employed, and that is what I will work toward doing.

* UPDATE: My ex-wife has agreed to discuss a fair amount, she's empathetic if not sympathetic and when I have a clear idea of what my situation will be we will make the necessary negotiations. I wonder if I can negotiate my rent too?

For Hire: Psychic.... I lost my job!

Now I [might] get to see how a Judge will rule.

First priority, finding a job.

Out of a Job, but will a Judge understand?

Sure, the news is chock full of economic woes, but will Ontario's Family and Superior Court judges understand that you're out of a job or even when you regain employment at half the rate? Imputed Income is a curse on those who are in the sights of the FRO and the "System" as a whole, your expected to maintain the child support payments even though you're income has dropped to the Employment Insurance maximum or your new gig's salary (or worse, hourly) is about 50% of what you're used to.

The expenses of moving to a new 1 bedroom apartment are on top of the fact that you've got a standing support payment that's more than you took home last month. You want to pay, you've been a good customer of the FRO until your job just up and vanished in late 2008, or maybe your plant has laid you off and your $26/hour is not $13/hour at the local BK. Your expenses haven't dropped and for some reason everyone wants what they've always been paid, there just isn't the money to go around. You feel trapped, squeezed, and fears of garnishment of the already perilous income you have are, weighing heavily on your mind let alone your wallet. Feeding your self is a secondary thought to how you'll feed the kids next time they're over and they're already sick of tuna sandwiches.

I am hoping the "System" we are operating under is more understanding that they have been in the past, this year, 2009 and likely into this next decade, will need a high degree of understanding and will humble many. We will be faced with mothers who still want to get paid full-pop, regardless of the father's income, we will have judges who have no risk of hard times, living their opulent lives, and we will have fathers reaching the end of their emotional ropes thinking about things they really need help to avoid. My biggest concern is losing my job, most non-custodial parents will have this fear this year. While there will be Deadbeats taking advantage of this as a reason not to pay, working under the table or whatever they do, there will be a good number of you who will feel so afraid and ashamed that you cannot support your kids and yourself that you will need to find solace in knowing you are not alone and this is not your fault. Never give up, but above all, tell your kids how things are, not to scare them, be honest that times are tough and that money is tight, they will understand and will adjust to tuna sandwiches, just keep loving them.

Am I helping/helpful?

I have come to wonder whether this blog is actually a help to people. The problems found in any and all of the various enforcement systems come down to two things, people having children that they aren't willing to pay support for and people who are parents that need support. The complications come in the post-moment realizations that children are a cost, but are totally worth it.

There are some that walk away from all responsibility, there are some that want to be involved that are shut out. There are seemingly few (but in reality this is the majority) that are payors or payees that are just fine, but the squeaky wheel gets the attention. This by the way is a completely justified squeak!

What we KNOW is that:
- parents should have a 50/50 access arrangement where possible.
- children should NOT be used as pawns or viewed as property
- moving great distances from the child(ren)'s non-custodial partner is not cool
- the current economic climate is going to lead to many people being unable to pay support
- every effort should be made to ensure both parents are involved
- where a parent walks away, the other parent does not need to PUSH the relationship
- where a parent walks away, they should NEVER walk away from support obligations
- Child Support is NOT about the mother and her needs, but the children and theirs*

I have put this effort in to be helpful, help people endure if not resolve the impact of the system. I don't know that I've helped, but I do know we need to be there for our kids. I'm not a fan of women using what people so crassly refer to as winning the baby lottery, but the men in those situations need to teach their kids that these women are a real problem and maybe education will resolve this issue.

Maury Povitch does whatever he does with the same intentions. The risks involved from unprotected sex are not only diseases, but a lifetime commitment to being a parent. I told my daughters one basic truth, "Boys Lie." I have also talke to them about the teenaged Moms we see at the mall and how that changes their life, how dreams and aspirations to be something more than just a drain on society can be lost when you make the choice to be a parent. Everyone makes that choice when they decide to have sex. That is the moment, if you don't want that, don't have sex.

* The judges should really start thinking about this harder.

Courts, the FRO, and the RAW DEAL!

In The Toronto Star: In fact, things might have turned out much differently had Tippett known that family law had undergone some dramatic changes in the time since his separation. Had anyone simply pointed him to familylawcentre.com where he could do the math himself, Tippett might have realized he was at serious risk the minute he stepped into court.

2009 a year of employment woe... but will the judges understand?

The Globe and Mail Reports that Finance Minister, Jim Flaherty, said that Canada is going to have substantial job losses this year. The question becomes, will the judges understand when there's a definate and pressing need to reduct support payments quickly to ensure the payor does not lose his or her house, vehicle, etc. and can ride out this economic storm?

The courts are notorious for laying all of the responsibility on the payor to find new work of equal value when there may be none to be had. Maybe the payor was promoted to a higher pay and has focused skills, maybe the pay-scale has dropped and scrambling to keep a home for his or her kids is (and should be) the first priority. "In the best interest of the child(ren)" should understand that the father can afford accomodation for all of them.

Praying for understanding in 2009.

Child Support Judgement Questionable... What now?

It turns out that being the biological father is not the foundation of Child Support it is that you have a role as father, provider, or financial crutch. The idea that a judge can make a decision "for the good of the children" and without regard to the mother's responsibility in the matter is troubling.

The Toronto Star covered a story titled "Man must pay support though twins not his" which details the case of a man paying support for children that have been proven to be anoter man's by DNA evidence. The only problem is that DNA doesn't tell us who this might be and the ex-wife is not talking.

The laws are there to protect the children, the women are benefiting (in cases like this) though there are plenty of cases where the FRO and the courts do nothing for women, mothers, children where the support is justified.

Looking at the Queries...

When people find this blog of the corresponding website using a search engine, they type in the real question (most of the time) and end up a number of places, but here for at least a moment. I wonder sometimes what they expect to hear/see when they see the title.

Here are a few of the queries and my responses:

"ex trying to make me pay child support"
Yes, if you are the father of the child this is expected. Feel free to e-mail me and give me more details, but what you need to work with is payments based upon the guidelines. I am not saying the guidelines are ideal all the time, but you need to plan on paying that much.

"where does FRO payments show on T4"
These days, it doesn't. It's income that's already taxed (payor) and the payee does not need to pay the taxes. If you are the payor... No, you don't get to claim it.

"Im laid off do i have to pay child support ontario"
"being laid off and child support payments in ontario"
Yes, but that doesn't mean you can't get a reduction. The problem is that you need to either have agreement from the payee or go to court (expensive) and ask for a reduction (while maintaining the current support levels). In this economy the judges should be understanding, but they are not always the most "with-it" and may not appreciate the gravity of your situation. You will need to demonstrate that you are doing everything you can to find gainful (full) employment.

"fro arrears repayment"
Hmmm, a tad vague.

"ontario child support if I go on unemployment"
See above.

"correct forms to fill out to stop child support when a child turns 18 in Ontario"
I'll find this, check back soon (here).

"CRA custodial parent clain babysitting child care cost cost taxes"
Yes, you get to claim them. No it's not entirely fair because if the payor is covering his share you should really be sharing the after-tax cost of babysitting... and babysitting better (really) mean child care, not little suzie next door.

"Child Support Stopping Payment Reductions Ontario"
Huh? Please e-mail me or comment with more information.

"when does child support end university"
This, for the most part, depends on your child support agreement. You should be setting expectations that the child pay a [significant] portion of their own costs, use OSAP, etc. That said, if your agreement states you're supposed to you'll need to go to couyrt to justify your inability to cover this cost. I do home your child doesn't want to become a doctor or lawyer!

I hope this helps.

I suggest FAIRNESS... a letter from a reader:

"Lisa" writes:

Seems to be a lot of talk about undue hardship and the guy getting screwed well how about this one:

My ex moves 5 hours away from our home only to say a year later that he does not want to be married anymore. I had left my good paying job (commissioned sales so you can imagine how long it takes to make a good life and build a client base) my family my home and friends. So I moved back with his blessing. We had the house reviewed and came up with a fair amount to give me and Off I went with the kids. Along with a promise to get 800/month and ½ a daycare costs (only after school as I made arrangements to start later to avoid costs in the am) He drives for about 4 months alternate weekends to see the kids. He then says I need to drive 50% of the way and I agree to 25% there and 50% on the return. He says ok then a few months later he says nope 50% or I will cut your child support! This is after he already stopped paying his ½ of a sitter which was 60/month. I could see where this was going and he became abusive to the point that we were referred to family counseling thru the police. In hind sight that must have been when he discovered his girlfriend was pregnant!

So it was time to get a lawyer and try to get things sorted out! After way too much money and time we have a court order for 1300 per month and he can have access when he wants (which is never) and must take them for 4 weeks in the summer and pay their costs. Well he wants only one and wont pay for the others camp costs! I have already taken my 4 weeks off and have no more time left to take vacations so had to place children in camp since they were 11 and 7. My ex said that they 11 year old could stay home!!!! At any rate he now has two children with his new spouse (not married) and all in a span of three years! Fast worker and now he got fired! They live in a very nice home that’s in her name drive a Yukon and a Mercedes she owns a business and says she only make 58! BS and he is studying to be a real estate agent. He was given 8 months severance and 8 weeks paid vacation-His ROE says he was dismissed. His plan is collect EI while he finishes studying and has asked me to take 350 per month for three months and then 700 after that! I said no and I would agree to 800 periods and then once he is making more money he can pay more! Which we know wont happen unless I go back to court. I am making a good salary but don’t have a live in partner have a small town house with a big mortgage (legal bills) and no help with extraordinary expenses. My ex insisted my son be in martial arts to help with his attitude which I do at 70 per months as a condition of seeing his son! That was a almost 2 years again and he still has not bothered to see him! My kids are heart broken…anyway I would like to know if you can help answer some questions. How successful would he be at claiming hardship and or getting his payments reduced?

Ya know Lisa, this bugs me.

Aside from the court order, which - when the right paperwork is filed with the FRO and what will become monthly arrears and payable at some point regardless of his income and employment situation - is fair based on his prior income. Before he pays less, he must either seek agreement from you and file the appropriate forms with the courts. If you do not agree he must go to court and file an Application to Vary for Child Support. This is costly (lawyers are not required but are a good idea) and may not be any more effective than the two of you coming to an agreement. The agreement might call for a yearly review (which is smart) and while his track record is such that he may not be consistent in support, once the FRO is involved, their powers of persuasion become very difficult to ignore.

Now, I dislike the FRO. I've been through their ringer and have come out the other side with a good game plan, "STAY PAID UP!"

I do not expect he would need to claim hardship, rather he will need to prove he is unemployable and unable to find work. This is difficult to prove, the judge may accommodate some temporary leniency, but you're better off to get this started with the FRO ASAP (perhaps even suggesting such and sending him to the FRO website on how they handle things before you do). His biggest concern will be IMPUTED INCOME, this is where the judge deems his earning are below what is reasonable for his skills and tells him he will impute his income, regardless of his actual income at a higher level. This is normal where the judge feels the payor is under-employed (not trying to work or working at something for less than is reasonable for his skills.

Keep the children out of it. Do not make your son's hobbys conditional, though I understand your motivation. Your boy's heartache is your first concern and ensuring he feels wanted and that while this is a poor decision on your ex's part, that the doors stay open.

I'm not a judge, nor am I a lawyer. I do know what the system is capable of, and the problems it causes (on both sides). You are best to seek mediation, agreement without the court's direction. I would suggest that it's better not to involve the FRO, but at some point your will have no choice. A friend of mine north of Toronto is a lawyer working at mediation of these sort of arrangements. They tell me it's better for the kids and likely better for you. Check your yellow pages and try to keep things peaceful.

I hope this helps.

globeandmail.com: Judge rips lawyers over excessive fees

globeandmail.com: Judge rips lawyers over excessive fees: "An Ontario judge has blasted the legal profession for running up excessive, unjustified bills that cause the ruination of ordinary people."

This was LONG overdue.